Hey all:
Welcome to the first post of the New Year. AFTER reading the Preface and Chapter One in Gang Leader for a Day I'd like you to respond to at least one of the following questions. Your responses must use at least one piece of evidence from the text, and must respond directly to at least one other blogger (with the exception of the first person to post).
Here are the questions:
1. "And then you got a whole lot of black folk who realize it ain't no use. Like us. We just spend our time trying to get by..." (p7). Consider our discussion on to what extent people are responsible for their own economic conditions. Why do Old Time & Charlie feel this way? Why do they send Venkatesh to seek out the young men for answers?
2. Why does J.T. claim he's not black, nor African-American--but a "nigger?"
3. Why would J.T. want Venkatesh to follow his gang around--after all, they are dealing in illegal activities?
Friday, January 8, 2010
"I'm not black"
Posted by Mr. P at 10:12 AM
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58 comments:
As we all know, the word "nigger" was originally created as a derogatory word used by whites to describe African slaves. To be called a nigger was analogous to being called something beneath even the rank of an animal. However, as time passed and slavery eventually ended, the word "nigger" began to take on different connotations, especially when being used within the black community. If a black person walks up to another black person and says, "What's up my nigger?", the other black person would simply respond, "Nothing" or something along those lines.
In this book, the meaning of the word nigger changes yet again. The gang called any other gang member, regardless of race or gang affiliation, a nigger. If you were a Mexican from a rival gang, as the gang members first believed Mr. Venkatesh to be when he first met them, you were a nigger. And I found it so interesting that when Mr. Venkatesh asked JT how it was to be black/African-American and poor, JT said, "Niggers are the ones who live in this building. African Americans live in the suburbs. African Americans wear ties to work. Niggers can't find no work. (pg. 16) To me that was like saying to be called an African American was like being called an Uncle Tom; also meant that you worked for the white man. However, if you were black and couldn't find work (maybe because you were to lazy to or for some other reason) you were a nigger. Also it showed the mind set of these youth from the projects. Maybe a lot of black youth that live in low-income neighborhoods really do believe that living in the suburbs and working office jobs isn't for black people. Or better yet, maybe they're bitter that they didn't grow up in a decent neighborhood and they are unable to have a decent job themselves, so they subconsciously lash out at Blacks in a better position than they are. Just some food for thought.
In the black society today calling someone a “nigger” or a “nigga” is normal, its like a common greeting amongst the black community. People use the word nigger or nigga like the word was never used to describe a black slave. Like Count Olaf said, in the black community if you walk up to a black male they are going to respond “What up Nigga”. A response would be normal like “Nothing Nigga” or “What’s good Nigga” or something like that. I expected J.T. to say that he was a nigger because most black males prefer to be called a “nigger” or “nigga”. In the text, J.T. said “How’d you get to do this if you don’t even know who we are, what we’re about?”(16). J.T. said this because he felt like that if Venkatesh was coming into their community and area, that he should know what they are and who they are. According to J.T., they are niggers who live in the projects, and Venkatesh is trying to figure out why people like them would refer to themselves like that.
Of course we all know, the word "nigger" was createdby white slave owners. The word initially meant "ignorant", though now it seems to have taken on a different meaning. In today's society, many Blacks, Whites, Latinos, Asians and other nationalities refer to each other as "nigger" or "nigga". But they seem to think it doesn't mean the same, I beg to differ. I feel that, it is still a hurtful word no matter. But i do find it quite annoying when many Blacks refer to each other as "niggeres" or "niggas" but become completely offended when a white person does it. They created the word, shouldn't they be able to say it? I'm not condoning it, I'm simply stating that if the slaves took so much offense to the word, why would you continue to use it, and degrade Blacks further? I agree with Count Olaf's quote from JT, "Niggers are the ones who live in this building. African Americans live in the suburbs. African Americans wear ties to work. Niggers can't find no work." (pg. 16) But i still feel that the word should not be used as it's further degradation to Blacks.
I believe that when Charlie and Old Time said “And then you got a whole lot of black folk who realize it ain’t no use. Like us. We just spend our time trying to get by…,” they said that because that’s how it’s always been for them. Growing up poor, they have always learned that there no use to try if you’re not going anywhere. They just know that they have to spend whatever time they have just to get by, just enough to make it. Like they said, that’s how it’s always been. They send Venkatesh to the young people for answers because Old Time and Charlie feel that the youth will give them the answers they need. Maybe they feel like they shouldn’t talk as much because of the loyalty and trust they have with the gangs. Thus, if they go to the gang themselves they will get the real answers. As Venkatesh was talking to the gang, J.T., the gang’s leader, claims the he’s not black, nor African American, but he’s a “nigger,” after Venkatesh asks him a question about being African American. I believe that they refer to themselves as “nigger” because it became a word, that is no longer has a bad meaning, it became a word that you call your close friends and family.
J.T. stated that African Americans are the ones who live in the suburbs and the “niggers” live where they live. I guess, like Count Olaf stated, that word is just a word that they refer to each other. J.T. feels that a “nigger” is a true black person and an African American is a black person trying to be white. J.T. wanted Venkatesh to follow them around because he told him with people like the, he should hang out and get to know what they do. When he noticed that Venkatesh came back, he told him that he should hang out with them. I truly think that J.T. wanted to show him that their regular people, but they just do things differently.
I think that Old time and Charlie said that because they felt that there was no reason to try to be like the whites. I agree with History Girl because that how so people grew up so they learned how to survive and do nothing else I also think they felt that way because they see so many blacks trying to be like the whites and they are seeing what is happening to them so they are saying what the point. I feel that they send him out to look for younger African Americans was so he could get a better response from them because the older folks are just going by there day worker or doing nothing while it the young African Americans who are feeling these affects. “Nigger” or “Nigga” in today society is a term used now as a greeting or a term referring to someone else. On pg. (17) J.T. the gang leader states that an African American is a person who lives in the suburbs and work while niggers are people who live in the project building and can’t get a job. So he claims he is a nigger because he is in the project building doing illegal work. I would say that J.T. is allowing Venkatesh so he can see what is really like to be a nigger on the streets. He is letting Venkatesh come along so he can get real proof instead of relying on the media. I think J.T. understands Venkatesh curiosity about what happens in the African American community.
History Girl said that the reason why Charlie and Old Time said what they said was because that's how it’s always been for them. I agree and disagree. Yes, it’s been this way for them for most of their lives but at the same time they could have changed their situation. The gang members are trying very hard at what they do so they won't end up like Old Time and Charlie sitting by a lagoon talking about their past and present. So, the gang members are going beyond their own extent to better their economic situation. They are risking jail time and death just to be better because of their "current" situation. They sent Venkatesh to see how things are going with the gang members. Reason why is because Old Time and Charlie feel as if they are doing too much just to be like they whites on “the other side”.
When we first see the character J.T. he is immediately described as the boss just by his demeanor. When Venkatesh asked J.T. this question he didn’t seem offended, but his response was more of a way to inform Venkatesh. J.T. responded the way he did because he was making a distinction between himself and more fortunate African-Americans. He says “Niggers are the ones who live in this building”…“African Americans live in the suburbs. African Americans wear ties to work. Niggers can’t find no work.” (pg.16) I think he considers himself as a “nigger” not only because this is what his peers refer to himself as, but also because he comes from a place of poverty where it’s normal to see African Americans out of work. So this response was a reflection of his personal experiences and his life.
I agree with Cindy-Lu about how J.T. questions Venkatesh’s curiosity when he says “How’d you get to do this if you don’t know who we are, what we’re about?” (pg. 16) I find this response more interesting than his first statement because J.T. is challenging Venkatesh about his questions by saying how can you ask such questions if you really don’t know much about us. This challenge is what sparked Venkatesh’s whole curiosity.
Today many words have several different meanings. One of the words is NIGGER. Nigger commonly used, on an everyday basis. The black race has transformed a derogatory term into a normal every day greeting. I don’t know if people fully understand how the word nigger came about or they simply don’t care. Some African Americans are aware of the true hurtful meaning behind the word, but won’t stop using it. They feel if one person is using the word it must be ok….but it isn’t. If they were to go and use the word around one of their great-grandparents I’m pretty sure they would get smacked. In the book J.T. say “he’s not African American he’s a nigger” I can’t imagine how he came about this realization. It seems like he’s just playing the part of being a drug dealer… because it also states that J.T went to college. I would hope that he’s aware of his background. Therefore I simply believe he’s just acting. I question if J.T.’s staff knows that he’s a college graduate? If they don’t he responded just like on of his foot soldiers would.
Blacks, African Americans, and niggers all have some kind of different meanings to them. J.T. states that he is not black, nor African American, but a nigger because in today's society blacks are looked at as people who have something going for themselves in some kind of way. But, on the other hand niggers are the ones who are looked at as if they will never succeed and could never make anything out of their lives but being out on the streets. J.T. had wisdom and probably wouldn't addressed his self as a nigger if he had something going for his self. But, instead he was on the streets in a gang doing illegal activities. As stated in the text J.T. explains that "Niggers are the ones who live in the building, African Americans live in the suburbs. African Americans wear ties to work. Niggers can't find no work" (16). This right here shows that they are different in many ways, but niggers are the ones who are struggling and trying to make ends meet to get by with life. Cindy Lu states that in society today it is common to use the word nigger and nigga. I totally agree because nowadays that's how black people greet each other especially mmales so since Gang Leader for a day focus on blacks that's probably why J.T. consider his self as a nigger, but not black or african america.
The fatalistic preachings of Old Time and Charlie give quite a bit of insight to how blacks "struggling" in the economy. Truth is their not struggling at all they seem to have accepted their fated. A lovely metaphor for this phenomenon is like a person who is thrown into water. At first they struggle just to stay afloat, but that only proves to drag them down at a more rapid pace, eventually said person will calm down and begin to just tread the water normally. This is probably what Charlie means when he says: "And then you got a whole lot of black folk who realize it ain’t no use. Like us. We just spend our time trying to get by." The trying to get by part is the black community just treading the water. Although I can't agree with HistoryGirl, that them growing up poor sets them with a mindset that tells them: "Its no use to try and become something better, give up and laze about." I think this mentality might originate from the "White-skin advantage" that’s been flying around. Perhaps they know that they won't be able to get a fair chance in the race towards the pot of gold because their skin color gives them a negative handicap, and gives whites more or less of a head start. In short the mentality doesn’t come from their economic status, it comes from hopelessness that blacks feel because they are held back by their skin color because of still existing racism.
The fact that Charlie and Old time said this shows that people are responsible for their economic conditions. They feel that there is no use and that suggests a giving up attitude which does not end in a positive result in most cases. They probably sent Venkatesh to go to young men for answers because they believe that young men are the reason for all the negative change and violence. I also agree with Cyclops when they said that the young men would be able to answer the questions better because they are the ones being affected by their conditions as a whole.
J.T. stated that "With people like us, you should hang out, get to know what they do, how they do it. No one is going to answer questions like that. You need to understand how young people live on the streets." J.T. might have wanted Venkatesh to follow his gang around so that he would gain an understanding of why they do what they do, and he probably felt that after Venkatesh knew this, the legality of what they were doing wouldn't matter to him. J.T. also may have wanted to get something out of him following his gang around, such as being happy that someone is going to great lengths to find out, first hand, the truth about the poor black community and its struggles rather than listening to society's views.
The question I will be responding to is the one about J.T referring to himself as a “nigger”. The reason J.T says he is a “nigger” is because of where he is living and how he is living. I don’t think this should be his mind set because even though he doesn’t wear ties to work or live in the suburb doesn’t mean he is a nigger. In response to Cindy-Lu’s commit the word nigger or “nigga” is used as a greeting term in the African American community and where J.T is living everyone refers to each other as niggers and they see nothing wrong with it. Me personally I feel as though the word “nigger” or “nigga” will be around forever and I see nothing wrong with it, as long as the individual who is using the word knows the background of it.
When J.T. claimed that he was a “nigger” instead of Black or African American, he said it with a purpose. “‘Niggers are the ones who live in this building,’ he said at last. ‘African Americans live in the suburbs. African Americans wear ties to work. Niggers can’t find no work.’” (16). J.T. feels that he is not even wealthier to have the title as an African American. Because he is the leader of a drug gang and lives in poverty, his title is set as “Nigger.” He describes an African American like a person who has nice clothes and lives in a wealthier place than where he lives. Like Allihaveisallofme said, the word “Nigger” was used by Whites who had slaves. Nowadays, it still is used and seen as negative term. J.T. obviously knows he is doing something illegal and he recognizes all the bad wrongdoings. Because of what he deals with as an everyday job, he classifies himself lower than his own actual race, as an African American.
When a person has been brought up and is taught to witness the same things over and over, he/she gets accustomed to this act. No matter what a person may be told, if he/she can’t get a taste of that experience, then their only choice is to adapt to their surroundings. Sometimes in order for a person to make out of a struggle, they must first get a small sample of success. I say this to say that Old Time & Charlie are two men who all their lives were probably only showed the struggle. As result, they feel that there only goal in life is to struggle in order to make ends meet. I agree with History Girl when she says that this is what they grow up on. Just like a young white rich child, if he/she sees success in their families and in their communities, then their thoughts on their future would simply be that they would succeed. I feel that they send Venkatesh off to the young men in order for them to tell him how they feel that living there is a struggle. The word “nigger” was term that was used in the slave days to describe black slaves. It was used to degrade the men as well as the women, but as time progressed it became a term that is common in the black community. The term nigger, when spoken between blacks, shows a form of greeting. It doesn’t degrade the black, in fact it uplifts them to show how hundreds of years ago blacks were once owned and controlled by whites and that hundreds of years later blacks are able to control a country full with different ethnicities. I think that J.T. uses the word nigger to describe himself because he feels that his everyday life is like struggle. He feels that he struggles just as niggers did in the days of slavery. He refers to African-Americans as suburb blacks because they are making it in the world in some type of way. I also think that he makes this reference to show that African-American just like Asians and Whites are type of ethnicity and those ethnicities when viewed by the world are successful, but a nigger is not. I think that J.T. lets Venkatesh hang with the gang in order for him to see the struggle.
Well I believe that people are responsible for the own economic condition about 75 percent of the time. It all depends on the case of the person. Some people can be trust fund babies as for others they can just be born into poverty but it is up t o them to make the difference. People can achieve whatever they want if they set their mind to it and have others to believe in them as they would believe in others. I think that Charlie and Old Time feel this way because they have only seen people fail around them and they feel they cant make the difference they were raised through some of the hardest times in the history of the u.s. I think their point of view is understandable, but they don’t like to face the outside world cause the world they are in is what satisfies them. Like Old Time, he spends his time fishing and drinking and that is what he likes to do rather than go out and try to find a job even at his age. He likes to live day by day and in his case he is responsible for his own economic condition. They send Vankatesh to seek out the young men because the times have changed and the young men as well as the women are what makes up the race now and how the race is currently represented. They have a better understanding of what life in the projects is really like. In response to Cindy- Lu’s comment yes it is normal but does that mean its right? People fought hard to get out of the idea of being a slave and yet they are here using the same word they wanted to get rid of to talk to each other. That’s kind of hypocritical isn’t it? Well it has become a common slang word so it is obvious that times have changed. Now when I read the section about J.T. claiming to be a nigger I was shocked I had no idea what to say. I think he should have more respect for himself.
I believe JT wanted Venkatesh to follow around someone and I do not think that he was talking about himself. I believe JT was amused when Venkatesh returned the next day. When I read "Then I saw JT, leaning back against a car, smiling and shaking his head" (p 23) it became a clue that JT didn't really expect to see Venkatesh ever again. When JT invited Venkatesh back for the following week, I believe that JT had felt the same connection Venkatesh did. I believed they connected on an intellectual level that brought them together. I think that the stranger's willingness to do what it took to actually learn something about what the everyday life was like in the projects.
In response to Rich_Boy is correct in his connection to the African American-Black-Nigger distinction was a part of his allowing Venkatesh to hang out with the gang. Every so often Venkatesh would document how JT would ask about jobs in the future. "Niggers can't find no work" (p 16). He seemed to know the difference between what he was exposed to as a child (which is where I will have to disagree with Rich_Boy) and wants to do something about his current surroundings (to some degree).
I think they feel this way because they know that people are mostyly responsible for their economic conditions. Most blacks would come across some money and would but the things they want and not the things they need. For example, you might need a pair of shoes but if you have some money, you would try and get a name brand shoe. Because blacks are always trying to be like whites and make alot of money, it becomes a struggle becaus emost blacks either dont work hard for it or they just dont have the same advantage that whites have.
People are mainly responsible for their economic conditions. A lot of blacks folks do spend their time trying to get by due to the fact some blacks aren't use to nothing so they expect nothing. I believe that Old Time and Charlie feels that way because they see that people can be lazy and they are lazy and just want some things to be handed to them, I also believe that the reason why Old Time and Charlie sent Venkatesh to seek young men because they may have believe that he would get a better answer from the young men of today's society. J.T considers himself to be a nigger because society has put in his mind that he is labeled as a nigger because he poor and black. Poor and black are the characteristics of a nigger. J.T wanted Venkatesh to follow his gang around because J.T mentioned to Venkatesh that he would basically have the answer to his question if he would stay around for awhile and just analyze. J.T wasn’t threatening by Venkatesh presences so he felt it was no need to not have Venkatseh come by when he wanted to.
Everyone in the Lake Park projects considered themselves to be niggers, due to their living conditions, J.T said an African-American lives in the suburbs, I thought that was actually funny because we all are African American according to philosophers and history, but the word nigger is a degrading word to be called, I also noticed that they called Venkateh a nigger and he's not even black or from their neighborhood, so I wanted to know the meaning behind that. I agree with QueenQ, when she mentioned that blacks, nigger and African American have different meanings, but there are more negative meanings than positive. “You got blacks who are beating their heads trying to figure out a way to live where you live!" pg 7, Charlie mentioned that to Venkatesh and that is true , and I believe that J.T would also agree with this statement and he would label those blacks as niggers.
They felt that way probably because the use of the word “nigger” by white slave owners back in slavery, They probably felt that if blacks are trying to be whites and they don’t think that should ever happen. I feel that Old Time and Charlie would say that because they probably grew up without having much in there life or someone there telling them to dream big they was living in reality that they had to survive the streets and do nothing else. J.T. claims that he is a so called “nigger” because he out there hustling on the streets selling crack cocaine while an African American is living in the suburbs trying to be white. I agree with Cyclops that the two man sent Venkatesh to find younger African Americans because they are the ones truly affected by it because older people are probably working or lying around while the youth are in the streets getting into all types of situation. J.T. would probably allow Venkatesh to follow him and his gang around because there wouldn’t be any other better source to understand how to be black and poor.
I think the reason for J.T. thought of himself as a “nigger” rather then African American or a black person, was because how society has treated him and how he has been raised his entire life. J.T. probably believes that because how society has treated him, keeping him in the projects and not treating him like a regular person that maybe he as an individual has become less then an African American and a black person. The word “nigger” was first created as an insult and has a really bad reputation the fact that J.T. refers to himself as a “nigger” shows that he probably views himself as something not equal to humans. He describers an African American as someone who dresses nice and works in a good job and is a very wealthy person. J.T. was probably raised by his parents and lived in the projects with his parents and saw how they struggled and thought that this is how he would be viewed and just started to become accustomed to the way he was raised.
Okay, first off people in the black community try to use the word "nigger" as a positive word. Yea they know that white people used the word "nigger" to describe those beneath them, those who were supposed to be unequal and less smart. I think that the main reason why black people use the word "nigger" today because they feel that they have overcome this term of the word "nigger". Whether this word should be accepted as a comfortable use, nobody knows.In J>T>'s case I think that the reason he considers himself a "nigger" is because he doesn't live the life of an African American or a black person. It like this when you say that you're African American it gives off a feeling of pride and freedom. Being an African American should be something you are proud to be. This was certainly something that J.T. was not. He wouldn't be considered black because this is an identity that classifies different races. To him it could simply be a division of different races. being black was a term that people use to seperate those of differences. J.T was indeed different but there was nobody around the buildings that were a different race. There was no need for classification. In this way, he wasn't considered black. I think that the reason J.T. considers himself to be a "nigger" is because this is the term that represents him. A nigger is someone who represents the struggle. Someone who has little attention paid to them. I think J.T.'s point of view is evident when he tells Venkatesh that he can't answer the question because he isn't African American, and when he says,"I ain't no African American either, you idiot. I'm a nigger." His choice of words and his tone show that J.T. just felt that these categories didn't fit him. They don't describe his lifestyle or his character. It's almost similiar to what flying pigtails said. He considers himself to be the lower of the bunch. He doesn't feel that the life he had to live is considered human like treatment.
I feel that the two old men were conditioned to live in poverety comfortably. They are partially responsible for way that they live, because they dont have enough hope and streght to do and accomplish things out of thier comfort zone. the old men also adressed the racism and segragation that they faced in thier life time, and expeieneces like that hinder you from having the courge to move forward and do better for themselves. old Time and Charlie sent Venkatish to seek out young men, because the youth and the old genearion have two different perspectives of the way that they live. The youth can give better insight because they are are the most presently active. The interesting thing is that a lot of what the young men said was similar to what the old men expressed. Ultros the Great brought up a very significant point about how impoverished blacks sensne of hopelessness homes from comes from their skin color because existing racism.
I beleive J.T. calls himself a nigger because he feels that he's not good enough to be an African American. in the book J.T. states that "Niggers are the ones who live in this building, (in other words the ghetto projects). "African Americans live in the suburbs. African Americans wear ties to work. Niggers can't find no work." (pg.16) Basically what he's saying is that an African American is the next step up in class from a Nigger. so J.t. believes that he is lower than an African American.
J.T. sees himself as a "nigger" , instead of an african american or at least a black man, because thats how society sees him. Just another nigger that sells drugs,another nigger that lives in the projects, another nigger that will soon be in jail. I believe this has been drained in his mind so much that it is truly how he sees himself. He doesn't see himself as anything more than a nigger. Nigger, a derogatory term that was used by whites to degrade blacks, used to be verrry offensive to african americans. Its crazy howthe term once made us sick to our stomachs, but now ,we even address ourselves as that ,casually. "Niggers are the ones who live in this building,...African Americans live in the suburbs. African Americans wear ties to work. Niggers can't find no work." J.T. clearly demonstrated the difference between african americans and niggers. Niggers are unsuccessful and relies on government assistance to live. African Americans live rich,lavish lives and are successful. So since J.T. lives in the projects(relying on government assistance] , and does not have a LEGAL job, he is a nigger.
this is a response to "allihaveisallofme". I do agree with what you are saying 100%. the word "Nigger did derive from past white slave owners, however the African American culture believes that they have rearranged the definition by dropping the "er" and adding an "a." This takes on a completely different word. by turning the word into a friendly gesture the "black" society allows the white surpremacisct to continue their bondage on us even though we are so called "Free!!!"
LaTasha Smith
J.T claims that "niggers are the ones who live in this building" and african americans live in the suburbs. My interpertation of thoses statements is that basically niggers are the one's who actually suffer and live a hard knocks life. African americans in his eyes are the ones that live in the upper class and have it all easy, basically living it up. he says niggers can't find work, but african americans where ties. So basically saying what i just stated. They have it made while niggers have a hard time even living day to day.
Now i do agree that nigger and nigga is a derogatory word and one is a slang word used by homies or what ever, and along with that i also think J.T. is using this word as a comparison to the way us black people live and the way we are divided, because of the class system, basically.
I would like to reply to question#2. J.T says that he isn't Black or African American because on pg(16), J.T says that, "Afican Americans live in suburbs. African Americans wear ties to work."
J.T views himself as a nigger because niggers are the people who live in the builing he hangs out at and can't find any work.
I'd like to respond to Cindy-Lu's comment though. I agree that black males usually greet each other by using the word nigga. But I have never heard a black male use the word "nigger" to greet each other.
1. Why do Old Time & Charlie feel this way?
Old Time and Charlie feel that they have to get by and survive due to a life time of disappointment. As black men they feel that they don't fit it to American society. These old men talk about the different types of white people and in both cases being black isn't accepted.These ideas of getting by is another way of admitting defeat, and I know that they tired of fighting a battle they wouldn't win.
Why do they send Venkatesh to seek out the young men for answers?
These old men told Venkatesh to look for young men because they are still involved in life, and they haven't given hope. These men probably know that Venkatesh is looking for current new, and these old men all live in the past.
2. Why does J.T. claim he's not black, nor African-American--but a "nigger?"
J.T. claims that he is a niggger because of the work he does. The people that are black or African American have jobs and live in respectable neighborhoods. J.T. says that niggers can't find jobs, eventhough J.T. is financially stable he doesn't being as a drug dealer as a job description.
3. Why would J.T. want Venkatesh to follow his gang around--after all, they are dealing in illegal activities?
J.T. wanted Venkatesh to follow the Kings around because he wanted to show what kind of people they were and how they lived. J.T. told Venkatesh that he wouldn't able to get any information from those surveys, but he would get the information he wanted by getting to know the people. J.T. was giving Venkatesh a head start.
Taking into consideration the discussion we had in classroom as to what extent are people responsible for their own economic condition I said that a person who isn't disabled or is going through a hard time is extremely responsible for their economic condition. I believe that a person that really wants to succeed in life will do anything it takes no matter how bad the start is. I think that Old Time and Charlie feel that the black folks spend time trying to get by because of all the racism they receive from people and how much they have had to struggle since the beginning of slavery. I think that since African American people have always been one of the minorities and things are harder for them well as they say. I believe that race shouldn't matter and that everyone should have equal opportunities but I guess its harder for some than other. But I believe that both Old Time and Charlie felt like they should ask the young people because they are the ones that struggle the most because of the peer pressure they might have to overcome. Or maybe because they are just starting and they see how things really are. They have gangs, drugs, alcohol, and violence around them. To respond to the second question referring to the word "nigger" this word used as an offensive word for black people. Now the word nigger is now used as a common word to refer to your friends. I guess that J.T refers to himself as a nigger because its a cool way to refer to himself. I believe the word nigger should not be taken easily and be played with like that as it has history and now its being destroyed.
Alim
Period 7
Question: 2.) Why does J.T. claim he's not black, nor African-American--but a "nigger?"
Answer:
J.T. sees himself as a nigger the same way some females see themselves as B***hes. If people start to call you something, eventually, it could catch on and everyone would call you the name ( a nickname for example). Eventually the name/word nigger (or nigga) caught on and everyone said it and called each other it. However, why he prefers to call himself a nigger over the word black or African American can be quite puzzling. In my viewpoint, an African American, Black, and Nigger are kind of the same thing. Nigger is just low, but I would not consider myself to be one. Just like a B***h is a female dog, and females call their self one, its low and I wouldn't use the word. What was actually funny though, was how J.T. got a little mad when Venkatesh called him black. Kind of like the regular black finding offense if a white person calls them a nigger. It's weird how when a black calls another black 'nigger' there is no problem, but when a white person says nigger it gets offensive. Huh? Also, when a guy calls a female a B (word) the woman takes offense, however if their 'girlfriend' calls them the word, its all cool. Its kind of twisted these days, yes? But its all in the persons mentality, and really nothing can be done to change the mentality. That is just the way some people are, and how society views them as being, a 'nigger'.
Question 2 states why does J.T. claim he's not black, nor African-American--but a "nigger?" Currently the word "nigga" is what some African Americans seem to call themselves. Although the younger generation black community looks at "nigga" as just a innocet word, they fail to realize that "nigga", in a sense, means black slave. While reading this packet it surprised me when J.T. said "Niggers are the ones who live in this building. African Americans live in the suburbs. African Americans wear ties to work. Niggers can't find no work" (pg. 16). I feel that this is the reason why J.T. feels as though he's a "nigger", because if he's stuck with silly sterotype that is simply not true. Agreeing with Agent_Bubblez, it is also possible that J.T. feels he's a "nigger" because of the constant nigga calling form his peers.
Response to all questions
I think they felt that why because they were so use to living that way to the point where it became comfortable with them and made them believe that the way they were living was high class [in social status]. Not that I’m saying that they didn’t realize they’re conditions but the way they were living was probably all they knew.
They sent Venkatesh because they wanted different prespectives from the youth generation. Their prospective of the way a person should live comfortably ,reguardless of current living conditions, is almost completely different. But many of the answers received were similar to that of old times’.
He claims this because he says that “niggers are the ones who live in the building [poor]” and African americans live in the suburbs because he may think that theyre higher up in the social status. I see this comment as niggers being the ones working all day and all night just to be able to live and survive. And African americans are the ones who have the descisions of how they want to live to survive just like the whites and rich people.
J.T. wanted Venkatesh to follow his gang around because by him doing that, Venkatesh would get the answer to his question that he had asked him and analyze their surroundings. I don’t think J.T. was bothered by his presence which made him comfortable walking and being around Venkatesh.
Respnse to someone:
This a response to “moni_klc” and anyone else with similar answers as hers.
The word nigger is a term from slavery and J.T.’s reasoning and the communities reasoning for considering themselves as niggers is reasonable in terms of what the slaves did to survive. What I strongly disagree with is that everyone who commented on this issue only made that poorly construed comment. Yes slaves maybe lived like J.T. but slaves lived that way because they were forced to. They worked that way because they were forced to. They said the things they said and did the things they did because the were driven to the point of no return. In these present days, present day “niggers” aren’t forced to live in these conditions. They aren’t forced to work at the job they work, if they work, and can chose whatever job they please as long as theyre qualified. And for everyone to say they can understand, I clearly cant because people who live in poverty are fully responsible for their living conditions and not anyone around them because they are not forced to. Maybe people will take away their opportunities and rights, but things they can’t take is your pride and view of happiness. Your pride is all you have when you physically have nothing and your happiness is always within you because you control your emotions and not anyone around you.
When looking at what J.T said about calling himself a nigger, I think that was his own interpretation of the word. This word has been used so much in so many ways that maybe he felt as though he needed his own meaning for the word, and I don’t think that we can take his definition away from him. I feel as though J.T was trying to take the still demeaning and hurtful word and try to make it into a positive, but failed because he was still downing himself. Going back to what Count Olaf and what Cindy-Lu touched on, saying nigga in the black community is just a way talking from one African-American to another. In these communities the people try to change the connotation of the word to mean something totally different from the original meaning, but in a way they are demeaning themselves because no matter how much you try the word will always mean the same thing it meant during the slavery period.
J.T.'s meaning towards the word 'nigga' is nothing new, yet it is still often debated. He gives a negative connotation to the term 'African-American' because he feels it is a demeaning representation of black people, created to make blacks seem 'proper' and conforming to American society. J.T. doesn't want to do that, that is why he hated his business career, and he "Hated"(19) his sociology classes. I agree with Demtrius in the respect that 'nigga' may not refer to slavery anymore, but it will always refer to a type of people that is considered inferior. Some of my Mexican friends use the word 'nigga', further establishing the point that the word has grown as some kind of empowerment amongst all minorites, not just blacks; a celebration of past oppression.
It is a contrast to Old Time and Charlie's perspective; J.T. doesn't want to be apart of White America, and Charlie/Old Time don't feel welcomed by White America.
I believe J.T. allows Venkatesh to follow them in order to tell White America what his life is really about, "With people like us, you should hang out, get to know what they do, how they do it." (21) J.T. knows White America is ignorant of what truly goes on in the black community, that is why Venkatesh's questions are so vague.
i think he believed he was a nigger because thats all he knew himself as. He was treated as a nigger so he felt that he was a nigger. I think charlie feels this way because he has been held down by the "man" for so long that he felt like he could never be better than what he is now. He would want him to follow him around so they can see the good things gangs can provide and how hard it is for black people.
He felt that he was a nigger because that was all he knew. He was called a nigger for so long that he began to believe it. Charlie felt that way because the "man" has been holding him down for so long that he felt as if he would never become something great. He wanted him to follow him around because he wanted to show the good things gangs do and also show the hardship that being black and getting good jobs come with for black people.
I believe that Charles and Old Time were saying that because there are other people that constantly try to talk to or get along with white people when it will just end up bad. Old Time and his friends realize that no matter what they do or say, black people are not wanted anywhere near white poeple and they should just stay with their own people. They said there are two types of white people and two types of black people. I agreed with his statement on what those two types are because they seemed completely legit for anyone to debate against.
I think that J.T. said that he was a nigger because niggers are the poorer set of African Aemericans, He said "Niggers are the ones who live in this building...African Americans live in the suburbs. African Americans wear ties to work.Niggers cant find no work." I wanted to disagree with allihaveisallofme because the reason that black people referto other blacks as niggas to actually turn the word in to something that WONT bring up so much hostility, so if a white person was to refer to a black person as like how we do it wont be so offensive, but if they intend for it to be offensive then it will.
the word "nigger" to low economic balcks hold more of a personal feeling because as J.T states "African Americans ear ties to ork, Niggers cant find work"(pg.16). J.T has the ideology that niggers are the ones who are the outcast in our society, and also seeing as how, he himself worked the regular 9-5 beforehe especially feels out of the. To J.T "african americans" is the socierty title thats use to describe black people but not the black, low income "niggers". J.T and the fellow gang member have more comfortability ith the word "nigger" because it gives them a sense of being their on persons and not seen as those african americans who do wear ties and have that persona.
I am responding to question #3. In the reading J.T had said, “With people like us, you should hang out, get to know what they do, how they do it…..You need to understand how young people live in these streets,” (page 21). In my understanding, J.T is not under any impression of worry when it comes to Venkates. In any way does J.T look at him as a threat. Also I have concluded that maybe J.T is only looking out for him. When I say this I am not for only his safety, but in the research that Venkates is doing. However, J.T made this suggestion to him, that sometimes questions are not the way to find out how people feel. J.T wants to show Venkates what is like to have the life that he has. He doesn’t want to be asked a thousand one answer questions, and then put into a study. J.T has a interest in what Venkates is doing. I think that his interest in Venkates research is what is allowing J.T to have him around. He wants Venkates to know, but know from his own opinions.
J.T. considers himself as a nigger
and not black or african american because he feels black people are the ones who live in the suburbs and work in the office buidings. J.T. doesn't feel as though he fits in with this group even though he has a college degree. He considers himself a nigger. The young black men no one cares about who sell drugs and live in the poor nieghborhoods.
J.T claims that he is not black, nor African American, but that he is a "nigger". The reason why he calls himself that is because he feels as if African Americans are people who have money and are fancy, as he states "African Americans live in the suburbs. African Americans wear ties to work. Niggers can't find no work." J.T feels that since he has no work and has no money that he should be called a "nigger", not only because of that, but he everyone stated, "nigger" was a feels that that is what other races refer to him as.Like word created by whites to belittle african american slaves, and J.T feels like others belittle him because he is a gang member.Also, J.T wants to let Venkatesh follow his gang because he wants Vankatesh to knows
what is it like to be "black and poor". J.T wants him to try to get
to know others before judging them and having a big stereotype about
them. J.T stated, " You aint going to learn shit with this thing." ... How'd you get to do this if you dont even kno who we are, what were about?" J.T wants Vankatesh to find a different approach for his survey, and he feels that if he lets him hang around with his gang, he will be wiser and better at approaching other for his survey.
J.T. claims to be a "nigger" because of where he lives and what he does. He says that African-Americans are those who live in suburbs and wear ties. I think he was trying to say that African-Americans are those trying to be white, trying to adapt to a white society. The term "nigger" for J.T. probably referred back to when slavery was around. He knew that he was accepting society's "old" view on African-Americans as lower class people. I do agree with Ro² =] he is classifying himself as a "nigger" instead if his own race but I don't think he sees it as lower, maybe he sees it as a truer form of his own race.
I believe that old time and charlie feel this way because they probably feel that there is no point in trying to be like white people because in the end you will not succeed. What I mean by this is they might feel that even if they lived in better neighborhoods with the white people, they would still be categorized as being an African American and would probably still be treated the same way. And if They are going to treated the same way then they might as well stay in the black community. I also think they feel this way because when grow up a certain way, those ways are still in your head so they may feel that they were raised in the black community and they are fine so why go to the white community and try to be something that they are not.
"And then you got a whole lot of black folk who realize it ain't no use. Like us. We just spend our time trying to get by..." (p7). I think that Charlie and old time say this because they feel like its too late for them to do anything to better with their lives. They are not young enough to go to school, get an education to become a somebody in this life. All they can really do is just do their best to work with what they got and get by thru the days. They see that its pointless for them to try to find a way to live in one of the white neighborhoods etc. So in a sense i agree with BeyondDaBaddest when they say that there is only so much they can do, and after their chances are eliminated nothing is left but to try to get by with life. Moreover, they probably told Venkatesh to find the youth because the youth are part of the present. They are the ones who are in trouble, who have to find ways to get out porverty while they still can. Old time and Charlie are part of a different generation, where its too late for them to try to get out.
1. I believe that Old Time & Charlie feel that "You got a whole lot of black folk who realize it ain't no use" because not only do blacks realize that there is no use trying to figure out a better way to live because in the end its pointless. You can spend your whole life trying to be as rich as the next person or as successful, but at the end of the day you are just going to continue being who you are. In a way this is facing reality. There are people who would rather face reality soon then try to achieve in a way the "American Dream" when you know it is not going to be achieved.
Old Time & Charlie send Venkatesh to seek out the young men for answers because in a way they want for Venkatesh to hear what they are telling him from someone who is from their generation. Also, to realize that no matter how much time passes there will always be tension between whites and blacks. Venkatesh states, "The overriding sentiment was that given how the city operated, there was little chance for any significant social progress" (p. 8). In reality this is the truth especially when you live in Chicago there is very little chance that there will be an social change. Chicago will continue to be one of the most segregated cities. People in suburbs like Schaumburg are predominately White, while people living in communities like Little Village are predominately Hispanic and people living in Englewood are predominately Black.
2. J.T. claim that he's not black, nor African-American--but a "nigger" because he states, "Nigers are the ones who live in this building, African Americans live in the suburbs. African Americans wear ties to work. Niggers can't find no work" (P.16). In a way I feel like J.T. in a way degrades himself, he puts himself down and makes it seem like African Americans are the only ones who are able to succeed and are middle class. While, Niggers are living in poverty and unable to get an education let alone find a job. However, that contradicts what J.T. is as an individual because J.T. is college educated.
3. I believe J.T. wants Venkatesh to follow his gang around even though they are dealing in illegal activities because I feel like J.T. feels like he can trust Venkatesh. J.T. may feel the need for acceptance from someone who will actually be doing something in their life as compared to having a heart to heart conversation with his fellow gang members. It will make him look like a weak leader when opening up to Venkatesh he doesn't run that risk of looking weak. I feel also because J.T. may want for Venkatesh to get a sense of reality and what it is like being a young man living in poverty.
In response to Jamillah M I do agree with her. I feel like J.T. wanted Venkatesh to follow his gang around because he wanted to show Venkatesh the kind of people they were and how they lived as compared to what Venkatesh has read or the stereotypes. It was also because J.T. felt that Venkatesh wouldn't be able to get any information from the surveys.
For question number 1, I believe Old Time and Charlie feel that they should not keep on trying to have a better future because they are tired of trying and no t being successful. As Charlie said on pg 7, “You got blacks who are beating their heads trying to figure out a way to live where you live!”. He knows that there are black people who try to have a better future to help each other but because of their color and discrimination they really haven’t had a lot of progress. I agree with Nash09’s statement that you are responsible for you economic condition id you are not disabled and is passing through hard times. You are the only one who is going through hard times and if you don’t help your self than no one will. Taking the initiative to seek for a future and not being a conformist is what it rakes for someone to succeed. Since Old Time and Charlie seem they had no success in their life time, then they send Venkatesh to go ask these questions to teens. They prefer for him to go and ask this questions to young people because they are the ones that are struggling through the hardships. Times have changed and probably he could get a better view on what is going (drugs, racism, violence, etc.)
For question number 2, J.T claims he’s not black, nor African-American--but a "nigger" because African-Americans live in the suburbs, work and are professionals. Niggers like he considers himself are the ones that can’t find a job and live on the same conditions he does. J.T doesn’t consider drug dealing a job and lowers himself. This is seen on pg. 16 where J.T reads Venkatesh questionnaire.
ON page 16, J.T tells Venkatesh that, "Niggers are the ones who live in this building," he said at last, "African Americans live in the suburbs. African Americans wear ties to work. Niggers can't find no work." J.T. claims he's not black, nor African American but a nigger because he lives in the poorer ares of Chicago, in one of the poorer buildings, selling drugs, and not makin a legal job. In response to green's comment, I disagree. I think that if that is how J.T. wants to portrait "niggers" and African Americans and if he falls into the category of a "nigger" than so be it. He knows and understands that what he is doing is illegal and is not a life-time living. He recognizes his failures and knows that if he's going to classify others as such, he can not exclude himself.
"Niggers are the ones who live in this building ,"... "African Americans live in the suburbs. African Americans wear ties to work. Niggers can't find no work." J.T says this for the simple fact that there is a line seperating blacks with money and blacks with none. Recognizing the lower income blacks, J.T and his peers as the niggers, it would make sense because that is the more offensive term. The blacks with lower income living in the projects are less respectable they get the less respectable name..."nigger", and the suburb living blacks get African Americans. In this society it is always the differences between society, it is harsh but J.T has the terms correct. You wouldn't go in the suburbs and call a black a nigger while he is at his job, but you would in fact call a black a nigger in the projects at his job, selling crack. These terms unfortunately go best with or status on the society scale. To respond to what "Count Olaf" said, I totally agree that nigger was like being called lower than the rank of an animal and that is what's going on in the projects only nigger is being used to describe someone not only beneath whites but beneath African Americans.
I want to responed to question number 3. Why would J.T. want Venkatesh to follow his gang around--after all, they are dealing in illegal activities?
I agree totally with Lydia M. I believe that J.T. wanted Venkatesh to follow his gang around because J.T. felt a connection to Venkatesh. I think J.T. admired Venkatesh intersects is his study and also his ignorance to what he was getting his self into. I truly do respect J.T. as person for what he did I totally love him as a charcter in this book. "I was astounded at what a thoughtful person J.T. appeared to be. It seemed as if he were somehow invested in my succeeding, or at least considered himself responsible for my safety."(pg 21) I really think J.T. wants to see Venkatesh do well because he sees alot of him in Venkates.
I believe Old time and Charlie felt this way because they have been discouraged by numerous people to the point that they feel they can only be at the level they are on now in life. They probably sent him to find younger men in hope that they would notice that they could do something more productive with their life then selling drugs. J.T. claims he is a "nigger" because the actual definition of nigger is an ignorant individual and based upon those lines he feels he falls in to that classification. J.T. wants Venkatesh to follow his gang because he admires his ambition and drive to actually come into the projects and ask his questions. But i also feel he wants him around so he can see and show how most of the people in the projects and the gang aren't like what mass media portrays them to be.
And as far as the Quote that Agent Bubbles pulled from page 16 . i think he said this as to show that upper class Negroes started calling themselves African Americans and that he's not like them. Even though he had a job he was stuck in the everyday grind that the typical black person goes through trying to find a way to pay bills and keep their image up.
Responding to question 2, I would have to agree with Queen Q. I believe that since J.T. is in the situation he's in, thats why he thinks he is a nigger. "African Americans wear ties to work. Nigger's cant find work." Quotes like this show that J.T. believe he is a nigger because he cant find work, which is why he is in a gang. J.T. believes that African American are smart and have nice jobs, blacks have jobs, and niggers are just he ones who noone care about and who are living in poor environments. It is because of this that he believes he is a nigger.
Old Time and Charlie say this because they have given up on trying to succeed in life, and just live their lives day by day trying to live with what they have."And then you got a whole lot of black folk who realize it ain't no use. Like us. We just spend our time trying to get by..." (p7). They have stopped even trying to better themselves and/or the way they live today. with this the way they are living is partly their faults. Society is also to blame because of the way blacks are portrayed & discriminated against, and the negative stereotypes.
Old Time and Charlie direct Vankatesh to talk to younger men because they believe they will give him better answers. This may be because they are the ones growing up today, and i believe are more influenced to participate in activities such as gangs, which affects them the most.
1) Charlie makes that statement because he believes there is no way to succeed as a black person in society, or at least in their community. They tell Venkatesh to ask the young men because they are the ones experiencing the struggles and the lifestyle that Venkatesh wants to explore.
2) J.T. claims that he is a nigger because he says that niggers can't find work. I disagree with that statement mainly because he used to have a job after he was through with college.
3) I think J.T. doesn't mind Venkatesh following him around because he trusts that he won't say anything. Also, i think J.T. sees a bit of himself in Venkatesh when he used to be in college and was working hard to make something of himself, so he's helping him succeed because he was never able to.
J.T claims that he is not black or african american because he feels that african americans are the more privilaged than blacks. He also feels as if niggers gave up a struggle and that what he is doing. Being a gang learder is the only live he knows and thinks he will succeed in. That is why he took the eay way out after he got out of college. He is a nigger because he lives in the projects and is very ignorant of his surroundings.
In J.T.'s opinion the word "nigger" is not the same as African American although to other people it means the same thing. “‘Niggers are the ones who live in this building,’ he said at last. ‘African Americans live in the suburbs. African Americans wear ties to work. Niggers can’t find no work.’” (16). I agree with Ro² =] that J.T. considers African Americans to those who live in the suburbs, have fancy clothes and have a well paying and legal jobs. "Niggers" are those who who might not be employed or do illegal things to survive and also has to do with where you live. J.T. considered himself a "nigger" because his business is on the streets and he came from the projects. Now he has become a leader running a business and protecting others. To some people this is not being successful, but maybe J.T feels he has become successful because at one point he was an "African American" with a college education and job but he was not pleased. Althought both terms are referring to the same race, this shows that there are differences amongst them.
J.T would want Vankatesh to follow his gang to get a better understanding of the society that surrounds him. Riding with J.T and his gang will give him first insight on how this "Nigger" society works. J.T gang is from poverished area, such as Lake Park and Robert Taylor, so this is good for his research, instead of very bland survey questioneers. This give statics about the ghettos a better view on things and how society can fix this problem. This is good for Vankatesh sociology class.
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